You're misguided if you think hisec was ever intended to be "opt-in" only for PvP.

I don't think that a Hulk should be a "profitable" gank target unless it's fit in an expensive way (i.e. with expensive named MLUs) so let's just get that out of the way. I also don't believe that a ship should be given a free "idiot tank" because the pilots are generally so complacent that they AFK mine in max yield fits that can only permatank hisec belt rats.

They already had that choice. It was all in the Hulk's fittings. Now CCP's giving them the fittings for free, along with a Cargo Hulk equivalent that can tank enough to be unprofitable to gank.

GǪnot to mention that they're also reducing the value of ganks by reducing the value of what can drop GÇö a Mack full of Veldspar is carrying 7M ISK worth of loot that the ganker(s) simply can never get.

The Mack has a functionally identical yield to the Cargo Hulk (especially when you take warping out for dropoffs into account). With enough Tank to be unprofitable to gank.

The only place where ganking is overwhelming is these forums. In the game itself ganking is a rather rare event outside hulkageddon.

Day by day EVE is getting more soft, thats sad man, one day I'll have to find another mmo, one truly hardcore. Burn all those carebears...

You're trying to compare T2 hulls with T1 hulls in regards to skilling. Yes, training for T2 hulls does take longer than training for a T1 BC... So yes, you were correct in saying "No comparison possible". However, you can skill for a retriever & use it efficiently in a little over a week.
The fact remains that if you want to be good at one thing, you have to sacrifice other capabilities. This no longer applies to mining ships. I mean you can literally make a Skiff tank better than a HIC & it's a fair bit cheaper too, all the while happily chewing away at whatever asteroid.

They can. They always could.

They just couldn't have Convenience, Tank, and the best yield in the game all at the same time.

The Rokh had great yield, great tank, but was inconvenient.
The Hulk (Cargo Rigged, 2 MLUs) had the best yield in the game, poor tank, and was pretty convenient.
The Hulk (Tanked) had great yield, good enough tank, and reasonable convenience.
The Hulk (All Cargo) had great yield, poor tank, and fantastic convenience.


The Miners just got the idea that they were entitled to have the best yield in the game without having to give up anything else mining related.


(By the way, claiming that Mining barges are giving something up by not being able to fit 8 missile launchers is like claiming the Abaddon's giving up something because it can't fit a whole rack of missile launchers instead of just 1, it's an insane argument and you look silly making it.)

The point of those barge changes was to make it so they could not be profitably ganked at the base level. Here's a shocker: You could already do that. You could get them to 38k EHP with out using expensive modules & they could not be profitably ganked.

Comparing the Hulk's capabilities to a Combat ship is silly and you should feel silly. It's like saying the Freighter's underpowered because it can't fit a DCII and a Cargo Expander. The equivalent to the Thorax's Magstabs are built into the hull. Adding more MLUs costs you your shot at defense.

T2 mining ships were for mining & did that really well. They also tanked really well if you bothered to try. Said T1 cruiser is a combat ship, not a strip miner. Also, I take it you've never seen a combat Hulk in action?

You keep bringing up cost & size comparisons when neither of them are valid arguments. I'm pretty sure the size, mass & cost of the WTC towers was a lot higher than the planes that brought them down.

What exactly is stopping a mining ship from shooting back? We all know they can use drones.

It already exists, one of the advanced military tutorials involves flying a frigate packed with explosives into a NPC structure.

Alright then. Suppose that CCP grants you your wish and allows the Hulk/Mack to have guns in the high slots.

How many miners would actually use those slots for guns? My guess is they would still fit Strip miners.

I mean, they don't use their mid slots, low slots OR rig slots for tank - why would they use their high slots for guns instead of more yield? Thats what this whole thread is about. Miners refuse to compromise income - which makes them easy targets, and CCP simply accommodated that pig-headed attitude with a ridiculous patch.

Why all the crying about 'cant shoot back'? Seriously?

And besides, suicide gankers only expect to live about 15 seconds anyway, because Concord is constantly being ratched up in power - do you think miners shooting back will make a difference?

Because the ability to effectively "shoot back" (which, because of ECM drones, they don't actually do re: Suicide Ganking) isn't an ability that's useful to miners, so it's not something valuable that they've given up.

It's like saying that other ships need a buff because they can't mine as well as the Hulk at the same time they do their job.

One ship with a badass tank is a great idea. Giving all the ships a significant tank increase is not a "rebalance," it's a straight buff. And it's directed straight at HS miners who now don't need to sacrifice anything for the enormous convenience that they've gained.

So you're suggesting that the appropriate way to balance ships is based on the dumbest people flying them? By that logic, nothing's broken. Because someone who bothers to fit their ship will beat them.

By the way,
an unfit Hulk has 10,900 Omni EHP.
an unfit Vaga has 9,170 Omni EHP.
an unfit Zealot has 10,800 Omni EHP.
an unfit Cerberus has 9,890 Omni EHP.
an unfit Ishtar has 10,400 Omni EHP.

So there's a full half of the Heavy Assault cruiser line who, when unfit (like the Hulks you think are properly balanced by player stupidity) have less base EHP than the Hulk.


So the other ships don't need a buff because the fact that they give up the ability to mine effectively (something unnecessary to their role) isn't valuable. But the Hulks needed a buff because the fact that they give up the ability to fight effectively (something unnecessary to their role) is valuable?

By the way, the Hulk certainly can fight. Just not particularly effectively. Just like, as you say, combat ships can mine, just not effectively.

You'll find you get better DPS with a T2 Burst Aerator and a Pashan's Turret Customization Mindlink.
With an Augmented Hobgoblin, it totals up to 1585.

How about you keep your accusations in one place until you have some evidence to show that they have any merit. Hmmm?

What "Party" is this? Am I a Communist now?

As I said in the other thread that you tried to derail with personal attacks, do you have any evidence that shows that I am arguing in bad faith?

When Gankers are plentiful, Ore Prices go up, so those who manage to avoid getting ganked get a higher return for their efforts, while those who cannot manage to do so get a lower return (cause they have to tank their ship or they have to recoup losses). Nerfing or Removing Suicide Ganking reduces or removes the profits that smart/industrious miners make over stupid/lazy miners.

As we are discussing my posting, show me the Propaganda posters that I have posted or admit that you lied.

As to bad faith, you accused me of being beholden to a "party" and having "masters." Now you're admitting that I am neither beholden to a "party" nor do I have "masters?"

Quite a U turn for something without an apology.

And since you're accusing me of having a party line to "tow" and masters to "follow" do you have any evidence to show that I have either?

Or is disagreement with you evidence enough of some massive conspiracy?

So then you'll have no trouble presenting your evidence of my colluding with "masters" to "tow" a "party line."

So what you're saying is that you have no evidence of collusion to present? If that is the case, on what good faith basis were you accusing me of such?

Right now, your refusal to present your evidence simply makes it look like you have none.

So go ahead and prove 100% agreement.

I'm not forcing you to keep digging yourself in deeper by making more and more outlandish claims. You're making those claims all by yourself.

http://www.symantec.com/security_response/attacksignatures/detail.jsp?asid=21552



I thought you wanted easy targets.

Or CCP could expand crafting so that griefers could install bombs to those ships when they craft them. Those bombs would explode if pilot activates at least one strip miner.

So, if I were to check your posting history, I'd see your posts telling the miners to adapt or die when suicide ganking became popular?

What do you mean by "brought in line", exactly? The way I see it, the exhumers have already been balanced with all other T2(!) ships... bringing their tank down again would throw off that balance again... and all because of players barking that have little to nill understanding of mining.

I didn't see miners complain... nor did I see CCP admit they did go overboard with the buff... or did I miss something there?